Wednesday, January 10, 2024
In this episode, Walt Zerbe Sr. Director of Technology & Standards at CEDIA Talks with Michael Heiss, of M Heiss Consulting and author/contributor for Residential Tech Today and Hidden Wires about some press events we attended focusing on video displays.
I am CEDIA, I am CEDIA, I am CEDIA, this is the CEDIA CEDIA podcast. Hello and welcome to another CEDIA podcast, not
up. Thank you. You know what, I've never had anybody do that in the beginning of the intro, and I really like it.
That's why I'm here.
Okay, we have Michael hice
if you hadn't figured it out by now. And
this is a podcast from the first day when I say first day, the first day the exhibit floors,
steps did you walk today walk?
Well, I'm at eight miles right now is 12 Miles yesterday, it was nine miles a day before. And, Michael, you and I were here early because we are both media, your real media. I'm kind of partial. But we had events that we attended Sunday and Monday. And now the show floor is open today. So this is kind of why we're doing the first official podcast today. So just to finish out the intro. Welcome to the CD a podcast. Waltzer be Senior Director of Technology and Standards. And we have Michael hice. With M H H. Consulting, you're a fellow your CD, everything you've been, you know, you teach a lot You talk a lot at CD as
a recipient of that great lifetime achieved Lifetime Achievement Award.
Oh, well, I was waiting for you to say that. Yeah.
And read my stuff in residential tech today res tech today.com or hidden wires and wires that co.uk Yeah.
And I do actually encourage everybody to read that stuff. Because Michael writes his things in perspective that resonates with our industry, anything
notarize I'm also a notary public.
Now. It's good to know. I'll see everything in my briefcase. I might need it.
Alright, let's talk see, yes, Sir Walter. Yeah.
So there's, in my opinion, there's been a ton going on in video, we got kind of, I know, I kind of focused Monday and Tuesday on attending video things. There. I think there's a lot happening in video, you've been talking about a lot of things in video as far as technology goes, when we're market stuff to market stuff and technology. And now I'm starting to see the market stuff. I'm starting to see the technology. So let's talk about let's uh, focus this talk on your initial take on video. I know you have more video stuff to do as the show goes on. So we're gonna do another talk me like next week, maybe more of a recap of other things that you've learned. But let's just start off with Woody. What's like the top stuff that you think is newsworthy to our channel? about what's happening in video right now?
Bigger is better. Yeah, for sure. 98 is the new 85, which is the new 75, which is the new 65. But as I've been saying, let
me let me cut you out. When you say 98 It's a new 65. You don't mean price point wise. screen size. Okay, the magic number cost wise, that was probably still 65, maybe 7565 75,
depending upon whether you're doing, you know, sort of a mid tier brand or a higher tier brand, but can compare to what it used to cost. Anybody here old enough to remember the 103 inch Panasonic Plasma? Yeah, right was about 80 to $100,000. And these 98, or Hyson says 100 inch TCL has got a 115. They haven't announced the prices, but there'll be in the 20 to 25 range. And just remember, they do bend in the middle, but only once. Which leads to another trend that is increasingly growing, which is ust ultra short throws, yes, lunches those. But despite all the talk about people, you know, watching stuff on their phones, but without getting a statistics at people, even Millennials watch stuff on big screens. Rumor has it No, we just walked across the Vegas strip from the Bellagio. And rumor has it there's like is some stupid football game here in a couple of weeks, where people are going to people going to be watching that on. In fact, why is TVs right? And why is that one of the big promotion dates, retail for screens? Because yes, you can watch a big game or not allowed to say what the big game is on your phone or tablet. But you want to have your friends over and watch on the biggest screen that you can. So there's a lot of activity in that market in that market segment. So that's one Yeah. Next thing anybody has read anything about what's going on at CES it's a little bit over height. But how many people had transparent OLED and transparent DVI LEDs on your bingo card.
You know I walk through LGs booth and Samsung's booth it was a major faux Guess okay, but here's the deal. And they also did like, not just like TVs that were transparent, but they were they were applying to other use cases so transparent to box.
Well, it's been that's been, you know, you and I have done podcasts over the years, when I've come back from display week. And LG has been pushing this technology for quite some time. And it's been around, like, even in refrigerator doors and retail, and the transparent screen thing has been around, but now they're trying to consumerize it. And it's something that people are going to say, I don't get it. And they're gonna people gonna say, but is it really that good. And it's not bad. Actually.
I was impressed. It's not bad, but it's a thing. It is a thing, it's
a thing. And if you want to be the for and that's part of the market, you know, that we work towards, that you want to be the first one on the block. It is it is pretty cool stuff. Now the LG one. And in fact, it was the LG secret LG Display the people that make the panels, not LG Electronics, there's a separate company that provides all of those, and in their demo room they were showing them at.
And that's the difference between my media and his media. I wasn't able to get into that, that room, but you will if
you're nice to me next year, I'll take you. They have them in, I didn't write it down 775 It's an it's an A camera thing that won't do video podcast, 7555 and 35. Because a lot of them are going to be used in retail, they're talking about putting them in subway windows, so you can have the map superimposed over the window. But you know, it's kind of a parlor trick. There's no doubt about it. But it's really cool. And the interesting thing is, you can see behind it, and it's an architectural thing. And again, we're talking to CD of folk. You have a client who wants to be the first one on the block with this new cool thing. Yeah, not available yet it will be towards the end of the year. Suffice to say they didn't announce the price. It ain't gonna be cheap. That was semi expected but not really. The next day Samsung now that was an OLED, Samsung showed a transparent DVI LED or micro led, which was a DV stands for direct view led Okay, so you can call Michael LED or DVD
that was an LED not direct for you.
When it's used as a backlight. Ah, that's the difference between micro led mini LEDs. You know, you listen to these things. You learn something every day, folks. And, you know, everybody's been familiar with semitransparent. LEDs things. If you look on the side of like an LA and a bunch of the big condo buildings down here was not the Staples Center. What the heck is it the crypto.com arena, and they really hate it because all the sports casters call it the crypt. But down here the LA Convention Center. So Tales from the Crypt. There you go. And you know you've got these nice even a lot of public places. How do they put LED screens in front of windows are expensive apartments? And the answer is they're like string. And you probably you will be seeing that ISC Yeah, but these are not like that these are real little micro LEDs. But it's still really a science project. No pricing, no timing. But you know, as one does, the other does, but it is not for everybody. But it's a thing that I suspect because this will be highly reported in the popular press and the blogosphere and all that jazz, that you pleasant listeners will be asked about it by your clients or local press. And the answer is its thing.
Yeah. Mike, Michael, do you think the driver this is science fiction, you know, the way they're just be like a piece of glass. And then you know, an image shows up in classic, The best
analogy driver. The best analogy is the way LG showed it in their suite before the press conference is it's in a metal frame. And it was about eight to 15 inches away from the wall. And then another display behind it. Well know that the display was in front and they could work raise and lower electronically, the contracts green. So did you want it to be totally black? Or do you want to see through it? And in this metal screen and I haven't really announced how they're going to do it yet, but it looked like an aquarium. So remember, back in the day, you're way too young wallet. Every go screensavers remember the aquarium screen savers master
screen savers had a ton of screens we all did at the finance When I realized
it was silly, and it was a an electric, electricity hog, but I mean, it's, it's a thing. And if you've got the type of client that wants to have something that the guy down the block on the Malibu Beach doesn't have, this is perfect for that. Yeah, you know what I use it in a primary viewing area, no, but be on the lookout for and be ready to explain that it's coming. I don't know what I you see a person don't know what it's gonna cost yet. But you know, put down a deposit and I'll be, I'll be back at you in a couple of months. So big screens, transparent screens, the continuing battle. So when we
say big screens, let's talk about size. I know that that Samsung had 114 inch micro LED. That's
a different category, because micro LED. And remember, those are all modular. The one big thing that Samsung showed was, and they've been promising this for Mansons, before the pandemic was, I think, a 77 inch micro LED. Yeah, and you know, a single unit, or maybe it's two pieces that fit together. But then again, that's also in the if you have to ask you can't afford it. price range. But picture quality is good. If you've got the right client wants to be the first on the block with something that by the way is really, really good. Now there is an option for it in a smaller screen size. Yeah, you want to see more direct view LEDs, let me know what you see at ISC or wait.
What's your gut tell you on where? What do you think's going to deliver? So I know, screen technology is application based. So if you got a lot of ambient light, you want one stop right there. Yeah, it's
application base. And you can talk about micro led, Mini LED backlit to regular LED OLED QD,
I'm still a huge OLED fan, personally. Okay,
but here's the deal. With another bit of market forces that are orbiting around this, is this has been the case for many years. But as we get into, and I know we promised we wouldn't use the a word. And I don't mean Alexa, we can't say that on the podcast. We didn't want to use the AI word here. So I know you don't like the Apple word either. Well, then ever, that's something different.
because of AI. And because of the other things in the processing that needs to go to produce the kinds of pictures, particularly in the higher tier of the market that consumers want. One of the big sales point from LG, Samsung, Sony didn't join TCL Hi, since everybody is touting their processors, yes. As if it's now Walt, I know that rumor has it you're an Apple guy, but isn't an M thing or an M one or an M? or an M 16? Or whatever the hell it is. But those are the process steps in a processor, or is it a? Oh, I forget the name of the new metal wake or whatever? Yeah, whatever. The new Intel range? Yeah. And as you look at, do you need an eye three or an eye five or an eye seven or nine, nine? Do you really need a MacBook superduper fluke or pro or just buy an iPad? Yeah. And I'm not putting it down. It's application specific. But all the manufacturers have been touting the ability of their processors to really do all the AI and the predictive things, and the home control and everything else that you want at the higher end of the market. So it's not just a display, the actual Yeah, totally, it's the processor, and people need to be given to put that in their mind. It's a little bit harder, you know, for you to really say, which is better. But, you know, I guess at the end of the day, it's the more expensive one is. Yeah, because it's a more expensive processor. It can do more things. And one other thing that these heavier duty processors are doing because they've gotten more lift, way more than the last two years. A lot of the TV set manufacturers and Samsung at the lead, but also LG, and TCL and high sense are touting once again, but they really mean at this time. The TV is the focal point of the room for finger quotes. Smart Home. Yep. And that was a big focus. And it's like real, and that's something that our world has to be aware of. Because that combined with does it matter? No, it does. matter, nobody cares. But that combined with matter, and thread, and home connectivity Alliance, and Bluetooth, le, and all these other communications protocols, that combined with the increased capability of a TV set, the do more than just like play pictures. There's a DIY competitive issue. Because if, as they say, matter, will matter, because it'll make all this stuff, you know, plug and play the dream for years. That's something that you Mr or Ms. Or CD person, yeah, you need to be aware of that, because you're going to be asked, Oh, I need you for bringing virus stuff. Well, you can what you can do it as well as I can. Besides you have no idea of being able to plan what all this other stuff is doing. But I think that's a cautionary part of what the manufacturers are promoting to the dealers who are the people that is remember, CES is a b2b show. Yeah. And that's what they're promoting to the public. You're gonna see it over the podcasts and, you know, TV shows and whatnot, you got to really be be attentive. Yeah,
I saw in the Samsung booth, a lot of attention to AI upscaling. The upscaling was actually pretty phenomenal. I also saw that they are now focusing on moving objects. So let's say you hit a golf ball, they had a last year's TV and this year's TV, and you could totally see the golf ball a lot better in the new TVS because they are they're tracking with quote unquote, their Ay ay ay object that is in motion and trying to focus in on it. So I'm curious. Yeah, but how is this going to be starting to affect artistic intent? And also, I was, things are starting to look a little like, I don't do crack, but they're kind of like crack. The pictures are almost getting. I don't want to say so. A lot of the things we tell people is turn off a lot of the settings right, you calibrate set and you turn a lot of this stuff off, right? But I'm curious if you're gonna be able to turn some of this stuff off? how beneficial it is, in all situations? Is it adding more complexity to our world? Where where's it going? It's literally
not to use an overwrought cliche. It's in the eye of the beholder. There are people that want every thing turn to the right, so that it's brighter, even though it's blooming and the picture is crap. But it's what does the cut? That's what we're teaching through. CEDIA, what does your customer client want? What are their expectations, and I can drag out an anecdote from the second CEDIA Expo in San Francisco back in the year, I don't even remember how long ago it was, and somebody was up there. And somebody was up there touting the benefits of calibration and saying, I see the person I'm going to tell you, client to make your set look like this. And somebody got up in the audience, a very famous good friend of mine, retailer from Texas. And he said, Yeah, but what if that's what the consumer wants? You know, it's not what they should have. I know, it's not what they should have. But what if that's what they were another mode, and the person giving a presentation said, Well, too bad. And the famous senior retar fellow said, You're out of your mind, it's your job to explain to them, why it should be the way you're trying to get them to accept it. But if that's what they want, you either give it to them, or they'll get somebody else. And that's a very important part that has nothing to do with technology. But that's customer relations. That's how you deal with a client. So turn it off. Sure. And if that, you know, and if there's a way through the new filmmaker mode thing, and I was just gonna bring that over vision, if that's what lights somebody up, and it makes it better at a site creators are gonna do you know, I mean, I live in that world. Yeah, creators are going to do what creators are going to do. And especially more so now. I mean, when I went down, when I went down to one of the local supermarkets are a bunch of doctors that I use are across from this cross the street from the Disney headquarters in Burbank, and there were picket lines all over the place, and there was a reason why those folks were there. Creators going to do what creators want to do, and don't be telling them what you want them To do Yeah, and AI is all wrapped up in that, but you as the person, at the end of the chain, have to determine what options you provide. They'll make or mode, especially in this new version is really cool. Yeah, I
want to bring that up. So I did attend. But if
they still say I don't get it, or why is the picture so how long have we been doing this? Yeah, the picture is too dark. Well, but here's why. Can I explain it to you? Fine with the pictures too dark, knock yourself out. Here's button a and here's button B.
Yeah, so I attended the UHD. Alliance talk, where they focus on filmmaker mode. They had a colorist there named John Daro. He's a senior colorist for Warner Brothers. He's a big, big proponent of the new filmmaker mode. And UHD Alliance is really going for this. They're they're going to be working with Apple and other people. They just announced a partnership with Dolby Vision. So filmmaker mode will be a setting and Dolby Vision. And then they're talking about this being automatic. So when when the TV sees the flash America,
don't be telling me how I want to TVs.
Man mediately switches into filmmaker mode when you turn it off. You I asked they said yes. Okay, then that's the answer. But they're they're changing filmmaker mode as well. They're starting out their partnership with LG. And what's going to happen is the light sensor in the TV is going to adjust. That's
also part of the Dolby Vision IQ. Well,
they didn't say that in this particular talk. But they are going to be changing the gamma on the TV based on the ambient light. And they they gave me a five nit background, like a color sews. And that background around D 65. Lighting, it was actually about 56. And then they they raised it all the way up to darn near daylight, and showed the way the they said look, it's not a calibrated beautiful image. But it's solving a problem of when your shadow detail is crushed. Because your ambient light level all of a sudden changed. We're trying to help with that. So but it was pretty interesting to be honest,
I've been know, it's a good idea. And please, I'm not against it by any stretch of the imagination. I've been involved in what we used to call film to tape transfers, since 1970. Yep, and some extensive in the artistic realm of the colorist. Or sometimes I supervised film transfers and had people like Ray Stark sitting over your shoulder, or you had to send a VHS check a set to Steven. And these things get done. Now it's not the same as old film to tape transfer. But now it's when you take the raw and you you know you Colorize and do all the Yeah, stuff the colors do. But at the end of the day, it's done ideally to the way the creative with the best contract gets it very good friend of mine is a top colorist in actually do an interview with him again one day, and I
would love to because I learned a little bit about colors because I didn't really know I was ignorant. I thought they just dealt with color, they will darken areas of a scene to highlight another part of the scene that's like they have a major role. Yes, they do and how the artistic intent is conveyed to the end user and I had no idea.
And sometimes it's to the skill of like the fellow that you just mentioned or, or my buddy mark. Or if it's a big deal, my buddy Mark has done a bunch of restorations and the filmmaker is still alive will come into his suite which by the way, he uses an LG OLED and he was in the old Technicolor building like the 100 year old technical building in Hollywood and they're redoing it so you got to move out and is it what are you going to get when you move to your new sleep mark? And he said probably a g4 out no commercial here but colors guys tend to like that type of the but he said yeah, there's a different that's Sony right? No The LG oh, let's
That's the new one that go down on the show out there Walt. Okay. But he said, you know, to some extent they're relying on me, Mr. colorist, to figure it out. But there are times when there's some persons sitting over your shoulder and they tell you what to do, and they might want you to do something different than what your sense would tell them to do. And I'm going to totally throw this off the track. But can we use as an example about creatives? Christopher Nolan and Oppenheimer? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. Hey, they're out there in podcast land when people complain to you, because remember, this is gonna be one of my CD talks this year. Whose fault is it? It's the integrator fault, because it's always the fault of the last person to touch it. Yeah. So anybody and the D, the Ultra HD blu ray, for Oppenheimer is now in its third pressing. I mean, that may alone be semi responsible for helping to bring back I bought. I don't I didn't buy a jet. Is it good? Heck, yeah. It's amazing. But how's that center channel? Kind of not there? Yeah. And you know why? Well, you do know why, because you and I have to discuss this, but for the benefit of our listening audience, is because Christopher Nolan only does natural sound. He doesn't do ADR. And because he's Christopher Nolan. He doesn't have to. But since there's no central channel dialogue, who are they going to call the integrator because it's your fault. And, and I know we're off track, but that's why I'm here. I remember the TV Academy, and I went to see the screening in their theater, the spawn Media Center, where it is the arguably the best nonpublic screening room in the country built, outfitted paid for by Dolby. Isn't it next time, if you're ever out, and there's a screening? I'm happy to take it to it? Like yeah, and I was in a screening a 600 seat theater, filled with a board members of TV Academy. And as we're walking out, people gone on with the dialogue. So I mean, these are people who are the creators,
Michael, to me, if you've got a struggle to hear something, it ruins the suspension of disbelief. Why does not
do that? Because I'm Christopher Nolan. And I can't help but no, bring this up. Give me his number. No, but I bring this up for the educational value. Yeah, but we digress. But all right, what else can we talk about?
I noticed the TV manufacturer stepping up their audio game. So the Samsung soundbar that was 11.1 dot for the Q 990. was actually pretty impressive.
And aesthetically as well, I think
it was the cars. Somebody had an old song Video Killed the Radio Star. Yeah, I don't remember who did that somebody out there is putting it on their phone right now, who did Video Killed the Radio Star, you know, or like, radio was going to kill vaudeville and TV was going to kill the movies and didn't work out quite that way except for vaudeville. But things are changing in that regard. And I completely lost my train of thought about why can you do better? Because I just said,
Yeah, I can edit it, but I might just leave it in because it's fun. No, I'll say that means Yeah. What? What was it? We were talking about? soundbar. And,
or Okay, got it. Okay. Pick it up. Okay, so, you know, Video Killed the Radio Star. soundbar. Thank you for reminding me what soundbar is killing the low to mid end AVR. For those who were at Expo, there really weren't that many. Were 99 699 even seven or 899 AVR. ISP? Yeah, they're still out there. But the strange thing is sound bars. Because as you've just mentioned, some of them are really good. They're Atmos see they've got all the bells and whistles pressed, and they are killing. To some extent, in my opinion. That's the room geometry, the size zero, right. But by and large, and especially in the mass market. That's why there's a reason why I used to work for a company and I was in charge of the AVR business. Yeah, there ain't no more AVR business, which is why I don't work there. I mean, you know, not my fault, not their fault. That's the way the business went. And people thought that remember home theater in a box? Yeah, home theater in a box was supposed to kill the AVR. But it didn't, because most of them stank. But sound bars are now so good. That if I was if I were a CD person all right. I would, you know, I'd have to think carefully and not puts sound bars down for the very reason. Did you just point that out because they're really good. Now is the soundbar gonna replace something like the demos that we saw at EXPO hack from Tony Romani or turn off and
now they this is not meant to this is just a particular use case for the right area, but it's a use case for more the places there Getting, they're getting decent for those use cases, they're actually impressive by the major manufacturers. So the point is they're spending time in focusing on audio now, not just their displays.
Yes. And you know, we can talk a little bit more about that after. All right. Well,
I think we've given a good. First recap. Is there anything else video wise that we didn't? Cover that you wanted
to make? Yeah, no.
I have one thing, no
podcast with me would be completed my cutting off in it enough bad annoying would be complete without a mention of ATSC 3.0. Next Gen. Yes, you're good for that. And LG for the moment to step back. It's a long story. TCL, though, is now going to have next gen. In some of their new TVs, so is still LG high sense. And now TCL. But now that 75% has been a long time coming. But it's a long, long way before the dawn. But ATSC 3.0. Next Gen is now in 75% of the US market. And there are now 1234 set top boxes ranging in prices from 8999 to 249. And it's good as is and I have two of them. And I have one called zapper box, which is a DVR. Yep. And it's really, really, really good. And what is coming next is next gen TV for other purposes. For K, maybe not yet. HDR, because of other conditions that we'll talk about at EXPO or your for me. The problem with the RSN is the regional sports networks, having financial problems, but not everything is going to streaming. There are still local channels over the air. And how would you be walked watching that big game? on CBS? Yeah, right. Now, this does not apply for CBS for this, as far as I know. But a lot of the rsmeans regional sports networks that are having their content aired through one of the major broadcasters, that is into ATSC 3.0. Right now today with HDR. That's how people watch sports. Yep. So you can watch it in HDR over the air. And that I mentioned once you buy the box, guess what? cord cutters? It's free. Yeah. And there are other services that are going to be coming along. So reports of ATSC 3.0 is a demise have been greatly exaggerated. The
only last thing I'm going to add is high sense seems to be really aggressive. I noticed the partnership with like, now they've done a partnership with barco. Yes, Marco is in one of their ultrashort. They didn't see the like thing though, like it was last year, right. But they're not there this year. Maybe they'll see the like in the booth this year. But that's a high sense USD in a fancy cabinet. And basically their optics, I think a lot like as optics and a fancy cabinet. But the Barco is firmware software and some of their magic sauce.
I'll tell you what, look for that. When you go over to ISC. Yeah, you know, I'd be really curious to see which find it well, and there were another, there were more Samsung had an 8k USD.
We didn't talk about gaming, a lot of people were focusing on refresh rates
144 is becoming much more common. Why would you want to get somebody into a higher end set for the 144 for the VRR excuse me, for the G sync and free sync? All those kinds of things are 65% of US population games. They're not like, you know, and this is a total misnomer. Games are not played by teenage boys on the floor of their
I know a lot of like middle aged dudes that no, you know, the average
age of a gamer is no what 36 Okay, all right. It's not a teenage boy on the floor of his room, you know, not doing his homework. It's somebody who's not doing his remote work. But that's
another project was no gaming
is becoming an that's where the processors we were talking about earlier, the ability to do fast refresh. We'll wait and see all those kinds of things are very important. And that's one of the reasons to try and get somebody to step up in the model range of a TV set that they're working for, for precisely That reason yeah, gaming.
All right, any last thoughts? Do you have a take on what technology is going to be going forward in display land? Are you happy? You haven't really checked out the micro OLED stuff. We know that we know the OLED stuffs kicking right now and they got a lot brighter. It's and the Q led also looked fantastic to me.
There hasn't there wasn't a lot of QD led, because there were only two manufacturers doing it. Sony didn't show any sets. And Samsung wasn't talking about Samsung was back pushing direct view DV led micro led and their mini LED sets. I think that depending upon the application, it's you know, remember it's the economy stupid, it's the application stupid. Absolutely. And we'll get James Carville to say that for us, but it's the application and what is the goal of the installation and there is no need to be a to as soon as you know best for every we have a huge amount of tools coming and it's up you know that switch CEDIA education is for so that you Mr. or Ms. CEDIA can figure out how to deal with a client in any part of the sales or installation process to help guide them to the right solution for what they want. So you're not going to get me to say, Oh, that is better. Mini LED is better, because right better
dancer pence dancer. Well Michael, I want to thank you for doing the podcast was a pleasure. Well, I see drag the whole kit to his hotel room because you know, this shows knots and it's really hard to get from A to B they're
back there. Go going back to projecting 130,000 people and it sure as hell looked like it's it was it was much vision it wasn't last year,
it was certainly busy. So I really appreciate your time. Today. Thanks for helping us a recap what some highlights we've seen so far. We'll catch up with you again. On more of the show.
Who are we to put in a plug for Expo?
Brain put a plug for Expo Expo which man with you people won't come to ISC two where's my ticket? That one's pretty soon. Boy you know there's there's All right, all right. Yeah, don't get me all right. Anyway, thanks for listening to the day one CD podcast. We'll have another one tomorrow with another crew if there is a tomorrow talking about other things. And again, as always, I was asking you to please keep an open mind. For more information on CEDIA visit CEDIA dotnet
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